Malcolm Gladwell joins Amna Nawaz for our 'Settle In' podcast

Transcript

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Nick Schifrin: Finally from us, “Settle In” with author Malcolm Gladwell, who says he doesn’t trust people who don’t change their minds.

He recently sat down with Amna Nawaz for our new video podcast to discuss that and revisit his first book, “The Tipping Point,” 25 years later.

Amna Nawaz: I wanted to ask you about this, because this has really stood out to me about you and the way you talk about your work and the way you are willing to revisit your own work and to say, I got something wrong.

And the crime example, as you have mentioned, I know you wrote about in “The Tipping Point” that the broken windows policing policies in New York, where the idea that little crimes could be tipping point for big crimes. And we know over time now years later how that led to very harmful policing policies, like stop and frisk and disproportionately targeting Black and brown people.

And you have come out since then and said, we were wrong. And I was part of that, and I’m sorry. And it was so striking to me to have someone with your kind of platform and voice say something like that so definitively. So I wondered if you would tell me a little bit about what Fed that decision and how hard that was to come out and say, I was wrong.

Malcolm Gladwell, Author, “Revenge of the Tipping Point”: Well, it wasn’t hard at all?

Amna Nawaz: No?

Malcolm Gladwell: Because I do it all the time.

(Laughter)

Malcolm Gladwell: If you knew me, you would know that my wife is always like, she’s — I so consistently change my mind on things, that she’s sometimes looks at me and she’s like — because I will express an opinion.

And she will be like, well, you could change your mind tomorrow. And I will go, yes, actually…

Amna Nawaz: I might?

Malcolm Gladwell: I might.

Amna Nawaz: I probably will.

Malcolm Gladwell: Or I will go to a restaurant, and she will be like, I thought you hated that restaurant? I’m like, yes, I did. But I changed my mind.

(Laughter)

Malcolm Gladwell: Or I remember once I was — I worked with this guy named Martin. And I was — I had a — I had a laptop made by Hewlett Packard.

And he was like, why do you have a Hewlett Packard laptop? And I went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how, I will not join the Apple universe. That is — and I gave all these 17 reasons why it was a bad thing.

And then, like a week later, he comes by and I’m working on an Apple laptop. And he’s like, what — I said, I changed my mind.

I always change my mind. I think it’s fine. I don’t trust people who don’t.

Amna Nawaz: Yes, but to be fair, changing your mind on like what restaurant you like or what laptop you use, that’s different than something you researched and reported and put into a book and then said, you know what, actually, years later…

Malcolm Gladwell: Something I researched and reported 25 years ago.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Malcolm Gladwell: How many things do you believe from — how many things did you believe 25 years ago that you still believe today? Like…

Amna Nawaz: Oh, yes, I’m not saying things don’t change. I’m saying for someone who published a book around one of these ideas to then have the courage and honesty to come out and say that, it feels like we live in a time where people aren’t willing to do that.

People will defend, defend, defend, deny, deny, deny.

Malcolm Gladwell: Yes.

Amna Nawaz: Like tell you you’re not seeing something you’re actually seeing. And you said, you know what? I actually got it wrong. That’s not the norm.

Malcolm Gladwell: Is it? I mean, maybe it’s not the norm in public life, but I feel like ordinary people change their mind all the time.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Malcolm Gladwell: And I feel like — it’s funny. I put everything through the prism of being a parent now. Parents, you always — the whole lesson of being a parent is that you are required to constantly change your mind.

Your kids force you to change your mind nonstop. It’s all they do, right? You say it’s time to go to bed. And they say, no, it’s not. And you know what happens? You’re wrong. They’re fine.

(Laughter)

Malcolm Gladwell: They don’t go to bed. So then you learn, oh, maybe my idea that they have to be in bed by 6:45 is a mistake. And then you change your mind.

And then you — it’s all this kind of like — you’re constantly gathering — you have a view about — I have two children. You have a view about one of them based on your experience with the other.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Malcolm Gladwell: Then you discover, oh, you’re wrong. They’re totally different. I can’t do that with this — with the second one. They won’t say it. And so you — like, it’s just — it’s just one — so I feel like, for ordinary people, I guess there’s no ego involved in that as a parent.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Malcolm Gladwell: So you — it’s commonplace. But there has — I think you are right in the sense there has been this very weird thing that’s been — maybe it’s true that this is recent in public life, where people are scared about changing their mind.

And I don’t really understand it, because I don’t trust people who don’t change their mind. If you don’t — the only way I would ever give any expert the benefit of my trust is if I observe them gather new evidence and alter their preconceived notion.

Amna Nawaz: Why do you think people are scared? Do you think they’re scared of the reaction or scared it makes them look weak?

Malcolm Gladwell: Well, I’m the wrong guy to ask because I don’t — I have no understanding. I don’t get it at all.

With crime, I mean, the broader thing with crime, the reason I feel so free to change my mind is that we have been living in the last 25 years in the golden age of criminology, where we have discovered things about crime and we have revised our understanding in incredibly fascinating ways.

The whole field — like, I talked about — in one of my other books, I talked about a guy named David Weisburd, who was part of a movement, what’s called hot spot policing. And it’s this observation that the crime in any given city, there’s a handful of city blocks that year after year are responsible for an overwhelming majority of crime.

Crime is not dispersed throughout an area. It’s concentrated. And you can identify those concentrated places and you can crack down on those places and you can drive an enormous crime — this is something we did not know 25 years ago.

I mean, it’s — that and a number of — a whole series of other things are things that we have discovered by very careful, brilliant work by really, really, really smart people. So, to be interested in crime is of necessity to have to change your mind.

Nick Schifrin: For the full conversation and more episodes, check out our video podcast “Settle In” on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.