Documentary argues George Orwell's greatest fears are materializing

Transcript

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John Yang: George Orwell’s writings warning of the dangers of totalitarian and authoritarian states gave the English language the term Orwellian. A new documentary argues that Orwell’s greatest fears are coming true. William Brangham talked with the director about his new film, which is in theaters nationwide.

Man: The very concept of objective truth is fading out of this world.

Man: I’m going to set down what I dare not say aloud to anyone.

Man: This prospect frightens me much more than bombs.

William Brangham: In his new film “ORWELL: 2 Plus 2 Equals 5,” director Raoul Peck offers what is in part a biography of the visionary novelist, essayist and social critic George Orwell, best known for 1984 and Animal Farm.

But Peck’s film also serves as a jarring reminder of Orwell’s clearest warnings about inequality, the pernicious nature of the surveillance state, and the lengths to which leaders will distort the truth to retain power. Raoul Peck joins us now. Welcome back to the program.

Raoul Peck, Director and Producer: Thank you.

William Brangham: One of your last films about James Baldwin was incredibly timely in its moment. This film even more so, as I think audiences are now seeing. When did you realize that, Orwell, that this film was the moment for now?

Raoul Peck: Well, as a filmmaker, you know, it takes us three, four or five years to make a film, so we never know when it will end. But what we do is to make sure that our film will survive any time and that the coincidence that comes out right now shows us how not all, well predicting the future, but how clear it was. Through his own experience, in arbitrary moments or authoritarian regimes, he deconstruct the whole machine, the whole toolbox of those appearances. And unfortunately, it rings so truthful today.

William Brangham: I know I was — as I was watching the film, the words in this film, one might call them narration, although they’re not really that.

Man: Freedom is slavery.

William Brangham: As you’re listening to him speak, overlaid with images of modern day. Several times watching the film, I had to remind myself these were words written almost half a century ago.

Raoul Peck: Absolutely. And that was the scarier part. We had that editing the film, you know, and even dealing with the text, because I started with the text and going through all that was the extraordinary occasion that I had access to everything. Orwell, everything he had written.

And going through those texts, you could see, oh my God, he’s describing something I saw yesterday and that’s an out of body experience. But that show how deep his analysis was, how he was able to deconstruct the whole pattern of deviants and authoritarian behavior. And he said, you know, it doesn’t have to be an authoritarian country for this to happen. It can happen within democracies as well. And it’s a slow burn where you don’t even realize what is happening.

William Brangham: There’s not announcement. The trumpets come and say you’re here comes the totalitarianism.

Raoul Peck: No, it’s step by step. And each time the civil society accepts that facts are not truthful anymore, that there are alternative realities, that words don’t mean the same thing anymore, or that words are forbidden, that book or ban, those are part of the toolbox of every authoritarian regime.

When there is a dictatorship or a putsch somewhere, the first thing they do is to burn books or attack the media or, you know, captured the DV stations. So it’s weird to be living this in the United States. And Orwell says something very truthful when he said the degradation of language is the condition for the degradation of democracy.

And now we are in a world where even words are being, you know, put aside certain words we are not allowed to use in the administration anymore, as if the function of that word would disappear. You know, it’s basically closing your eyes. So it’s a very weird place for democracy right now.

William Brangham: I mean, you are clearly arguing both in this film, that we are in one of those moments that Orwell warned us about where governments will insist that two plus two equals five. Do you really believe that? Do you think we are in one of those moments?

Raoul Peck: Well, it’s suffice to watch the news every day, you know, to hear elected officials trying to convince you that what you are seeing is not what it is, or that you shouldn’t use that word to describe something that obviously is an abuse of rights.

When you attack academia, when you attack the justice system, when you attack the journalists or the networks, those are known tools to degrade democracy. So at one point, you have to accept that this is what’s going on. You know, you can’t continue to tell yourself, well, he’s saying two plus two equals five. Maybe they might be right.

No, you have to keep, as always, say your common sense, two plus two is always four. And that arithmetic formula is arithmetic. It’s not a matter of opinion, you know, it’s a fact.

William Brangham: Given that and your belief that we are in one of those moments, how do you explain the relative lack of outrage from people?

Raoul Peck: First of all, contrary to what is declared every day, it’s not a landslide victory. You know, there is 1 percent difference between the electoral votes. And second, people are stunned. A lot of people are stunned when suddenly all the limit that you knew, all the rules that you knew, when even the language that you knew doesn’t mean the same thing, it’s hard to react.

And I understand that when you lived for so long in a republic that was more or less peaceful, where there was a balance of power, you know, Congress had its job, the executive branch has its job, the justice had their job. Cut it for them.

And you start to see a dysfunction meant people whose presence is to make sure that everything is running correctly are not doing their job. Parliamentary are afraid to tell what they actually believe. They would take the floor when they know they are not going to for reelection.

All those little signs, you know, when you have to think twice before saying something in front of a microphone, those are saying, you know, I come from Haiti. I grew up in a dictatorship, and I remember my parents, you know, whispering in the living room.

And now I’m seeing friends that they don’t have certain discussion openly anymore because they don’t want to lose their jobs or for some reason, they don’t want to be cataloged in one camp or the other. Those are very scary signs. And when you come from the third world, you have some instinct to decipher those signs very early on.

William Brangham: The film is “ORWELL: 2 plus 2 equals 5.” Raoul Peck. Thank you so much for being here.

Raoul Peck: Thank you for inviting me.