'We cannot have art institutions that lose money': Grenell defends Kennedy Center takeover

Transcript

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Amna Nawaz: And joining me now from Hermosa Beach, California, for an exclusive interview is Richard Grenell. He’s president of the newly renamed Trump-Kennedy Center. Last February, he was named interim president by the board that was appointed by President Trump. Grenell also served in Trump’s first term, including as ambassador to Germany and acting director of national intelligence.

Ambassador Grenell, welcome to the “News Hour.” Thanks for joining us.

Richard Grenell, President, Kennedy Center: Thank you for having me.

Amna Nawaz: I want to begin by just giving you the chance to respond to what you just heard there from Doug Varone, from others in the piece reported by Jeff Brown, a number of artists who chose to cancel or pull out of performances, citing both the president’s takeover of the board and also the renaming of the center. What’s your response?

Richard Grenell: Well, first of all, I would note that, in the entire package and in the questions, there wasn’t a single question about the finances of what’s going on.

And I have noticed at PBS, for instance, you all haven’t covered any of the finances in terms of the situation that the Kennedy Center has found itself. The Trump-Kennedy Center is in a very different position than the previous center was.

And I would say that we have a phenomenal situation financially with the current Trump-Kennedy Center, because President Trump is a phenomenal fund-raiser. And what we have been able to do is look at ticket sales, donors, as well as corporate sponsors, and come up with a holistic approach to how you look at the arts.

When I arrived at the Kennedy Center, the then-Kennedy Center, we were paying staff with debt reserves. Now, I understand that there’s a lot of reporters who don’t understand finance and who don’t understand what paying for staff with debt reserves mean.

But it seems to me that reporters who are interested in the full story should look at the full story of what’s been happening in the arts. I don’t quote The New York Times that often, but just about two months ago, The New York Times did a front-page story saying that Broadway was dying, ticket sales were in the tank.

This is a phenomenon that’s been going on for decades. Arts centers are struggling. And the only way that you can go forward and have an arts institution that’s financially secure is to look at the holistic aspect. At the Trump-Kennedy Center, we have 19 unions. It’s incredibly expensive to go and put on performances.

We cannot have unpopular programming that doesn’t pay the bills. What I said when we came — and, by the way, I didn’t cancel a single show at all at the now Trump-Kennedy Center. I simply…

(Crosstalk)

Amna Nawaz: Well, I want to ask you about that, if I may.

Richard Grenell: When you look at ticket sales — when you look at ticket sales and you look at donors and you look at corporate sponsors, you have to come up with revenue-neutral programming.

We live in a world where you have to think about finances. We don’t have unlimited funds.

Amna Nawaz: I appreciate that response. And I want to ask you more about both that, the programming and the finances, because, as you have noted, there’s been a lot of reporting around the ticket sales. There have been specific ticket sales windows that were reported on The Washington Post that, at one point, the ticket sales in September and October were at a 43 percent unsold rate, as compared to just 7 percent the year before.

Richard Grenell: Not true.

Amna Nawaz: That’s not true, you’re saying, that reporting is wrong.

Richard Grenell: It’s not true.

Amna Nawaz: OK, but then The New York Times also reported that venue income fell around 50 percent.

Richard Grenell: So, here is…

Amna Nawaz: If I may, let me just ask this, because, as you note, you’re sort of rolling out a different revenue model, is what I’m hearing. So are ticket sales down? Is that confirmed or not?

Richard Grenell: Well, first of all, let me just say this. I find it to be outrageous that PBS is not reporting on the phenomenon that arts institutions have been having for decades.

Now, I do note…

Amna Nawaz: Ambassador, I will say, we have expansive arts programming in our coverage, but please continue.

(Crosstalk)

Richard Grenell: That’s not what I said. You may have expansive arts programming, but you don’t consider the finances.

But let me just note one thing. The previous chairman of the now Trump-Kennedy Center is David Rubenstein, and I understand that he’s given you millions and that the room that you’re sitting in is named after David Rubenstein. So I don’t begrudge you that you can’t go after a big donor and say that his financial management of the then-Kennedy Center was something to look at. You can’t touch that.

I get that, because he’s a very big donor.

Amna Nawaz: Ambassador Grenell, let me make clear this has nothing to do with any of our donors or the fact that the studio is named for David Rubenstein. Please continue.

(Crosstalk)

Richard Grenell: You invited me on. You invited me on. Let me speak.

When you — when I arrived at the then-Kennedy Center, we had no money in the bank, and we — again, we were paying staff with debt reserves. That’s immoral. You cannot run an institutional. Let me give you one more example; 94 people were employed in the development department, which is how you raise money.

Since President Trump has arrived at the now Trump-Kennedy Center, we have raised more than $130 million, blowing away all other fund-raising, and that’s corporate donors who are coming back because they trust the programming. We have got the Stuttgart Ballet and the Vienna Philharmonic.

We — I will give you — the individual that you just interviewed, I will give you that we cannot do programming that loses money. He was losing money. The $40,000 that he was talking about was what we were paying him, and he didn’t have ticket sales that were proper.

Again, though, I didn’t cancel him because he was scheduled by the previous regime, who had a different criteria.

Amna Nawaz: Understood.

Richard Grenell: My criteria, President Trump’s criteria is different. We cannot have arts institutions that lose money because you have programming that is woke or not popular. We need popular programming to sustain arts institutions.

Amna Nawaz: Ambassador, your team has — I understand.

And your team has made it clear to us there are obviously artists who have no problem performing in this Trump-Kennedy Center. You pointed out — and your team, rather, in a note to us…

Richard Grenell: We have a lot of artists that want to…

Amna Nawaz: Miranda Lambert, Brooks & Dunn, Cheap Trick all just performed in December.

For those artists who are pulling out themselves, citing the renaming of the center, citing the fact that the president took over the board and made himself chairman, are you saying that all of those performances were losing money for the Kennedy Center?

Richard Grenell: No. I don’t really understand that question.

What I’m saying is, we have changed the programming so that, with ticket sales, you have to combine donors and corporate sponsors. In today’s world, let me just educate you about arts institutions. No art institution is able to pay for programming with ticket sales alone. That’s not how the future is going to be for arts institutions.

It’s extremely expensive. You need to have donors in corporate America who come forward and say, we like this programming, we want to write a big check, and we want to support it. Again, we have 19 unions at the Trump-Kennedy Center, and it is incredibly difficult to pay for any programming with just ticket sales alone.

Amna Nawaz: The fact that…

Richard Grenell: So all I’m telling you is that we are in great financial shape since President Trump came.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Richard Grenell: Again, $130 million raised in 10 months.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Richard Grenell: We have still got two more months to go.

Amna Nawaz: You have made that point, sir.

Richard Grenell: And we’re going to blow the fund-raising records off the doors. We’re just raising more than we ever have.

Amna Nawaz: The fact that the viewerships were the Kennedy Center Honors were down so dramatically, some 35 percent in terms of viewership — this was the Honors that President Trump himself said he handpicked most of the honorees. He hosted himself.

Does that — as a steward of this institution, does all of this, the backlash, the headlines about artists pulling out, the fact that so few people paid attention to the Honors, does that worry you?

Richard Grenell: Well, let me challenge you on that again, the biased fact that you just thought that you were giving.

If you go to CBS, they will tell you that the CBS Trump-Kennedy Center Honors this year tied for number one in its demographic. I looked at the numbers for PBS’ “News Hour” last year.

Amna Nawaz: That is separate from the fact that the numbers dropped from last year, which is what I asked in my question, sir.

(Crosstalk)

Richard Grenell: No, no, this is — no, this is what I’m trying to say to you, if you will understand this.

TV viewership, year after year, is dramatically going down. Your programming has lost a ton of viewers. CBS, ABC, NBC every year are losing viewers. More people are going online. So all I can tell you is, is that this year, CBS said that the Honors tied for number one in the demographic.

Amna Nawaz: So, the drop in viewership does not bother you, is what I’m hearing.

(Crosstalk)

Richard Grenell: Well, what I’m saying is, is, in the context, we won, we tied, and we were the most popular for that night. That was on a Wednesday night.

What you’re trying to compare is apples and oranges to a Sunday night, which is different, which was last year, when there were a lot more viewers on television. In case you don’t realize, television is a dying medium, and every single year, if you look at the numbers, viewers are dropping dramatically.

I have got nephews and nieces who won’t even watch television because they’re just doing things on their phone. So the digital content is different, and you didn’t quote that, because, digitally, President Trump, the Trump-Kennedy Center, and the Kennedy Center Honors this year, which is now the Trump-Kennedy Center honors, did phenomenally well.

Amna Nawaz: How did they do online? Can you give us a number?

Richard Grenell: Well, I would just refer you to CBS. Don’t take my numbers. CBS is saying that it was tenfold compared to what any other year that they compared it to.

So, digitally, it really took off.

Amna Nawaz: Ambassador Grenell, there is so much to talk about here. And, as I mentioned, we do cover the arts quite a bit. So I will just say we do welcome you back any time as we continue our coverage of this.

But while I have you, I do want to ask you about another part of your previous portfolio, and that was related to Venezuela. I know that you did work on the Venezuela file earlier in the year for President Trump. You have met with Nicolas Maduro.

Holistically, when you look at the actions of this U.S. government, what do you think the goal of the policy is? Is it to remove Maduro from power?

Richard Grenell: Well, look, I work for President Trump, and on this issue, I’m going to give him maximum flexibility, and I’m not going to say anything about the policy.

Amna Nawaz: OK.

Ambassador Ric Grenell is currently president of the newly renamed Trump-Kennedy Center.

We thank you for joining us. Please do come back and join us again soon.

Richard Grenell: I definitely will. Thanks for having me.